Curse

Woutsie · Jun 21, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

The WTS/WTB thingy is just stupid... :s

TheRaven · Jun 21, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

about the auto kick, i do not agree, at least for certainly not in PvE environment. He my heroes and henchies can wait, they even seem to like it, ebing able to do their own thing.

We're mainly concerned with PvP right now. In my suggestion, I specifically said to implement only in FA/JQ/AB where it severely impacts other people. If I'm in a PvE mission with only heroes and henchies, I'll go AFK for quite a while as well. After all, I'm not inconviencing anyone except Koss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

How to solve it? Rate people? SO they dont get access in groups. That works only for AB, RA and FA are solo access, so no option, then a human cop only remains. And who is gonna check him for powerabuse? I think they are and remain a problem. In missions u can turn back and dump the guy, In AB u dump em after the battle, RA and FA are just lost cases, enter try again.

Ratings would just open up their own set of problems. You'd get immature kids joining missions just to give everyone a low rating. You'd also get the noob Warriors spamming flare and earthquake non-stop in a mission and if you try to correct them they just yell "Shut Up you %#$ Noob!!!! Don't tell me how to run my build!!!!" and then they give you a low rating.

Sorry, but I don't like the attitude that RA and FA are lost causes. Let's put our heads together and find a solution that's workable and acceptable to everyone (except the leechers of course

)

Free Runner · Jun 21, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

So how about this? If a player is idle (no movement and no skills used) for X minutes in AB/JQ/FA they are kicked back to the lobby area and their accumulated Balt/Kurzick/Luxon faction is reset to 0. (Not the title, just the unspent faction in the first Hero window.) I think this is fair. No need for bans. Bans are overkill for something like this anyways. Just remove the rewards for bad behavior.

They can just use a skill or move around every once in awhile to get around this. I think temp bans are very acceptable.

Why should they gain from the teams effort without contributing? why should those of us who dont leech and actually play the game have our playtime ruined because 5 or 6 of our team are afk? leave the game and start a new match? all very well but most of these leechers are not 1 time things. They repeatidly enter the match and leech knowing they can get away with it.

SpeedyKQ · Jun 21, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Besides, come on, let's be realistic. How many people know how to run bot, find a bot, or dare use one? Leeching on the other hand is piece of cake.

QFT. I think even a simple solution, like auto-kick after inactivity, would be a huge step in the right direction, and shouldn't be rejected just because some people could bot around it.

Lots of people know there are no repercussions for hitting the "Begin Battle" button every few minutes while doing homework or surfing the web, to collect some easy faction. But they wouldn't want to risk being caught running a bot to do the same thing.

Nukey · Jun 21, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

First of all I think this auto three day ban is a really bad idea. Just too much room for innocent people to be banned and it's too harsh of a penalty for standing around. I know you hate leechers (I do too) but really...

Vote kick is also a bad idea. There's too much room for abuse.

I definitely agree that if you are AFK, you should just be kicked back to the lobby. It's true that some will get bots to move around, but an overwhelming majority, I'm sure, will not. Thus, if someone innocently gets a phone call or gets called away then they're simply kicked back to the lobby and the amount of points already earned during the match is deducted.

I think that's a very good first step, but if you wanted to make the system a little bit better you could require that, for example, every five minutes you must attack, take damage, have your summoned creatures take damage, OR use a skill that targets an enemy or OTHER ally. In AB standing on a shrine as it is being captured (little red/blue progress bar) would also fulfill the condition. In Fort Aspenwood, returning amber would also fulfill the condition. I'm pretty sure that convers every gameplay situation, but if there's something else feel free to add it. Again, if a person is kicked back to the lobby, they lose ALL faction earned from that game.

Finally, one more measure to thwart the auto-join clickers for fort aspenwood (if auto-clicking is widespread enough) could be to have a little message pop up that says "are you sure you're ready to enter the mission?" This popup would appear randomly somewhere within a circle in the center of the screen with a radius no more than 0.33*user_resolution. This would make the popup appear in a relatively small area of the screen, but also be too random for a bot to use to join.

These suggestions should definitely cut down on most of the leeching. I personally think they are feasible and fair.
I hope you'll pass these on as some ideas, Gaile.

Servant of Kali · Jun 21, 2007, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Well, for start, i think the penalty system would work, IE:

"For each two minutes AFKing in FA AB JQ, you lose 1k Luxon/Kurzick Faction, your title track is decreased by 1k, and you get no rewards for the match."

This wouldn't be a big deal for those who go afk a bit here and there. Come on, even if you're on the phone it's not that big a deal. There's no bad or anything.

A more milder variation would be: "After 1 minute of inactivity, you gain no faction in a current game". Even this would help. If you're on the phone, have an emergency etc, you didn't contribute to the team, and thus you're not gaining anything, sorry. 1 minute time isnt too harsh. 1 minute in PvP is AGES.

Kynareth Adeus · Jun 21, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Frankly, I personally don't care about leechers. Both sides are equally affected. Just because other people have more to do than FFF all day doesn't mean you gotta give them crap because they don't contribute.

/notsigned.

It's simply not quite as much of a problem as you make it out to be. So there's some chum who's standing in the same location. The opposition probably has someone just like him.

GodofAcid · Jun 21, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

You guys are really stretching this a bit too far. If you're ABing, something pulls you away for a few minutes and you get kicked back to the lobby and lose only the faction you would have gained in that particular round, then that's completely fair. It goes with the territory and reasonable people would be accepting of that. Of course you'll have people who complain, there will be people who complain no matter what happens. Let them sit and whine. The majority of people would find an autokick more than fair, and wouldn't find their faction greatly affected because they're not being pulled afk every other round. If they are, frankly that's their problem. They can either find a better time to play or learn to live with being kicked every other round. If you don't contribute, you don't get faction, end of story. Lag sucks, it's unfortunate, and someone might get kicked now and then, but an occasional inconvenience shouldn't stand in the way of a solution to this problem.

Bryant Again · Jun 21, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kynareth Adeus

Frankly, I personally don't care about leechers. Both sides are equally affected. Just because other people have more to do than FFF all day doesn't mean you gotta give them crap because they don't contribute.

So you're saying they have something better to do than faction farm. Okay, that's cool. However, that is NOT an excuse to just sit there and leech faction,. If they don't have the time to faction farm, then they shouldn't get faction. And just because both sides are affected doesn't make it right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kynareth Adeus

It's simply not quite as much of a problem as you make it out to be. So there's some chum who's standing in the same location. The opposition probably has someone just like him.

Oh how I was that was always true...

Also, Kali - keep in mind that faction isn't the only reward. In Fort Aspenwood, you earn experience. This makes it a very easy way to get Legendary Survivor.

Servant of Kali · Jun 21, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kynareth Adeus

Frankly, I personally don't care about leechers.

You know, when i come to power in my country, i will personally see to it that people like you are exiled from my country. That will attract the opposite ones, and the country will prosper.

Conn · Jun 21, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

IMO banning or kicking people back to the starting area is only a mediocre solution. The reason why people leech should be removed. If there is no reward for leeching then there is no more reason to do it, except to grieve other people ofcourse.

Denying leechers faction or exp if they don't participate is the only solution IMO. This way you should get full teams again, with occasional disconnects and afk's, thus being able to enjoy the areas again to their fullest. If you kick people back to the starting area you deprive the team from a player and take away from the enjoyment of the other players. In other words only players that want to do these areas should then be playing.

Now there is no way to fully remove bots from these areas but it would clean up quite a bit.

On a side note I find the faction gained by fort aspenwood and jade quarry to be quite pathetic compared to other areas. These could and should be buffed too, if something like this would be implemented.

Servant of Kali · Jun 21, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Yes Faction gained in FA is quite pathetic, but if you're leeching it's still cool because you get something for zero effort. People play FA because it's fun though, not that much for gains.

Bryant Again · Jun 21, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

It sucks more for the Kurzick side, timewise. If Luxons do it right (and Kurzicks don't), they can earn a little over or under 600 faction in under 10 minutes.

Servant of Kali · Jun 21, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Yup. But that's old story and we are going a bit off-topic. Yes Luxons can win in 5 min, which i do very often. And they get as much faction as Kurzicks get for 20min win. Luxons can get 2-4x more Faction. It's just not right.

Fril Estelin · Jun 21, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Artificial solutions to leeching belong to another thread. Thank you.

Just a small piece of advice here: you may think that a solution is stupid (and it'd be stupid to think that without any good solid reasons) but they're rarely "artificial". If you want to open a discussion (rather than just try to make a point to Anet), leave the doors open.

Quote:

I already defined it in the above post

I'll repeat though:
Leeching: "Starting missions for the sole purpose/intention of standing idle and thus receiving the benefits earned by others".

Please note: running around and doing nothing is not leeching. It can be griefing, yes, but it's not how i would define leeching. I don't think we should go to very broad definitions of leeching at this point. If we get rid of the most narrow aspect, we've done a lot. The main point of leeching is that you're roleplaying a bot. You press Enter Mission and go afk or do a macro which does the same. Essentially, you're a bot. You don't do anything yourself, yet you reap the benefits.

Thanks for the clarification, this is consistent with Anet's definition.

Globally I understand and agree with your point if we delimit it exactly to the precise behaviour you describe, i.e. "Enter mission, then do not move until end of mission". The "AFK" FACT can probably be checked automatically by the server and no reward would then be given. But it would come as a surprise for those casual players (not everyone plays as "seriously" as you are) who are legitimately AFK without notifying the party (not a big deal if they only loose the mission rewards, big deal if they're banned).

But people are "smart" and they often find ways around. What about just following the group and doign nothing? Or moving randomly? Or typing once in a while an AFK message? All this with the same purpose/intention of leeching?

My point here is that, though this proposal sounds good, it may move the problem elsewhere. Going further discussing the examples based on the questions I raise above would probably lead us to discussing what it is to "contribute" to a party/mission and how one could assess others' contribution (i.e. what about people lying?).

(by the way, I thought your point was about AFKing in missions, would this still be valid in other contexts like PvP, which I'm unfamiliar with?)

One final note on your last message:

Quote:

You know, when i come to power in my country, i will personally see to it that people like you are exiled from my country. That will attract the opposite ones, and the country will prosper.

It will not, because you will have very angry ennemies

More seriously, managing large communities is an art very close to a science (I'm sure Gaile could tell us more about that

), it does not work with simple rules like the one you stated. This is not a mechanical thing, rules cannot make a community prosper, they can only try to address certain problems. The global equilibrium in a large community is a very subtle thing (it's probably even worse in a rich game like GW, remember the PvE/PvP divide?).

Serenitude · Jun 21, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

1. "No fair! What if I have an emergency!?" - This isn't a ban. All you lose is what you would have gained from the battle. Perhaps instead of wiping Balt faction, the penalty is instead -5,000 Balt faction. That way someone with a lot of accumulated faction saved up wouldn't be tremendously hurt. If you have a true emergency you can exit the game quickly and deal with the problem. If the problem is soo severe that you have no time to exit then losing faction should be the least of your concerns.

/signed, and agreed. To the OP - you may not have had a severe family emergency yet, and I apologize for the acidic nature of my first post, but, heaven forbid, if you DO have one in the middle of your game, the game is suddenly the LAST thing on your mind. I just don't think coming home to a ban, another kick in the nuts, is good customer service for someone who's probably just suffered a major kick in the nuts to begin with.

And I'm not saying the problem doesn't need solved. Leechers suck. But, from personal experience, emergencies arise also, they can be legit, and GW is the last thing on your mind in those instances. I agree wholeheartedly with the above solution. And no, technically, I wouldn't have even realized I had been banned for 3 days in my case, but that's just me. Other's situations will be different. And had I found out, I would have been LIVID.

"Sorry son, yes, that's a sucking chest wound, but I'm in the middle of an Alliance Battle. It would be severely impolite of me to to leave. At least give me time to type a detailed explanation, and shut down. I should be able to call you an ambulance in 5 minutes or so. Try not to breathe."

Mysterial · Jun 21, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I personally agree with you. We don't give points to those who lose in other situations. However, I don't know if that's a choice that the designers will or would make, but I'll ask.

That's not entirely accurate. It's true that other gametypes don't give end of match points after you lose, but you still get points in the loss as long as your team got kills, so you're not leaving the game empty handed.

However, that did bring to mind a better idea, which is to remove the losing team's points at the end and in exchange give points for completing game objectives. For example, whenever you are in capture range of a shrine that is neutralized or captured, you gain X faction. It's almost the same thing as long as the objectives you award faction for directly relate to your team score (as shrines do in AB), but doesn't award anything to players that aren't doing anything.

Patrick Smit · Jun 21, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

You know, when i come to power in my country, i will personally see to it that people like you are exiled from my country. That will attract the opposite ones, and the country will prosper.

Although I fully agree with you, leeching is also a in real life problem. EVen there its difficult to discern who really earns his wage, or just gets it because is being nice or whatever. Same for social securities. In real life these problems have not been solved, never will, and it will be like that in GW for as long as its servers run. You can fire people in real life, but if people are nice and just do enough they dont get fired, even if they should.

With the proposed inactivity kick leechers would just move a tad each minute, leeching continues.

Nemo the Capitalist · Jun 21, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

leechi8ng = alliance titles

Servant of Kali · Jun 21, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

but they're rarely "artificial"

Nah, i was referring to solutions like "give faction only when in range of ..." or "only when you use a skill this happens..". That's too artificial to be usable.

Quote:

But people are "smart" and they often find ways around. What about just following the group and doign nothing? Or moving randomly? Or typing once in a while an AFK message? All this with the same purpose/intention of leeching?

People still do that even now. Some of them. They play 5 minutes, then they just keep afking. So yes, they can do all that which you stated, but it takes a lot of "work". In other words, if you're clicking all the time, you might as well play.

The main problem with leeching are blatant greedy scum which just AFKs for days and days and weeks and months. You know them easily because they all play in Offline mode. Why? Because otherwise they would get flooded with curses

There people don't really have time to move once a minute left n right, unlike they make a bot which can result in a ban so it's ok.

Simply saying that leeching is a problem will keep a lot of people away from such greedy adventures. You don't need to weed out all of them. Even in RA you can find some who just AFK whole game (sometimes because they forgot they pressed Enter Mission, happens to me too from time to time), but it's bearable because it doesn't happen as often. In FA, the leechers are all over the place, in every single game. It's difficult to find a game where on at least one side there won't be a leecher.

While there are many ways of griefing, a simple methods already suggested are enough IMO to make those game areas *playable* and *enjoyable*.

Quote:

It will not, because you will have very angry ennemies More seriously, managing large communities is an art very close to a science (I'm sure Gaile could tell us more about that ), it does not work with simple rules like the one you stated. This is not a mechanical thing, rules cannot make a community prosper, they can only try to address certain problems. The global equilibrium in a large community is a very subtle thing (it's probably even worse in a rich game like GW, remember the PvE/PvP divide?).

Haha well having angry enemies means you're possibly doing something right as well. Look at all the great people, they always had a strong opposition and a lot of people who envied them

Managing large communities takes a lot of skill and ability that is true, and it is by no means simple. Im not a fan of rules either, but i wasn't making any, really. I merely said that i would remove those whose mentality doesn't fit the society mentality i would try to build.
Look at GW for instance. The problem is the mentality. If GW was full of unselfish people who wanted to enjoy the game and wanted the others to enjoy, the place would look much better. As it stands, look at how many people only care for themselves. It's self-evident. Look at PvP-PvE debates. To me, they look silly, because there is actually no conflict of interest between PvP and PvE. The only conflict is in some peoples heads. The mentality of people causes otherwise non-existent issues. There are 2 days to solve that: 1) limiting access to people whose mentality fits in, and 2) improving people mentality. Im not talking about GW here but IRL, since GW is about economy; you need to attract as much people as possible. However, IRL is different. Numbers alone don't mean that much. The goal should be achieving the mentality of people which hold up to the higher (yet realistic) standard, and keeping non-wanted out. When the average quality of population mentality increases, the virtue and prosperity becomes more evident, and thus the country attracts other productive and virtuous and unselfish people. The mentality of the population also needs to be such that it sees vices as repulsive and unwanted. When a selfish person decides to join such a society, it will instantly run into a brick wall, because the virtuous people would not tolerate such negative behavior.

As you can see, in such a society there would be lot of discrimination, but not based on nation, color, age or something like that, but on personal qualities. So, when you would see a guy like that one saying "wtf ffs i dont care about your issues, im enjoying my own stuff who cares about you blabla", he would soon be linched so to speak, kicked in the bum and launched out of the countries borders. There would be no need for a rule and regulation, the high sense of morality and virtue of the population would be enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serenitude

if you DO have one in the middle of your game, the game is suddenly the LAST thing on your mind.

Im aware of that, and im not really a huge fan of bans here except for frequent repeated violations.

Quote:

I wouldn't have even realized I had been banned for 3 days in my case, but that's just me.

That's the whole thing. If you had such an emergency, you probably wouldnt realize it. There would be some issues to solve IRL, possibly, and it's not like there are no other games around, or other activities to do in life. Cmon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Although I fully agree with you, leeching is also a in real life problem.

Leeching IRL is a different phenomenon. Let me explain.

Leeching in GW makes you richer and richer, your titles increase, and a lot of people got tons of gold by selling amber early on.

On contrary, leeching in real life has the opposite effects. You get the same money as if you were actually doing the job normally right? Ah, but your company has worse results, and let's bring this leeching to extreme - your country is going down and down. While some Chinese people work whole day, two shifts, in your country tons of people do half a shift and half leech. Sure, that seems good at first, but in the long run your overrun. At that point, your country either needs to do something, or you're pwned. It's the same with corruption etc.